中国DOS联盟

以下是引用不点在2003-11-27 19:11:06的发言：
这一行太长， 在我的 mozilla 浏览器中显示得不正常，所以用回车截断：

when we map or substitute one driver letter for another with our real-mode assembly DOS program,
not using Windows'''' SUBST command; all drives enter into real-mode under Win98. However, when
we call another DOS program doing something not essential within our DOS program before issuing
win.com, after entering in Windows, Win98 can recognize all hard disk drives, using Protected Mode.

＝＝＝＝＝＝＝

确实奇怪， 而且，我也是初次接触这类问题，我觉得恐怕是您的技术人员能够帮助我了，他们毕竟长期接触这方面的东西。我觉得，其一，win98 可能存在 bug，尤其是您的公司所遇到的奇怪情况，加上我们这里的 int13 所遇到的情况，都说明了这一点。其二，也存在这样的可能性，那就是，win98 把我们当作病毒来对待，它故意让系统在这种环境下运行失常。我在 DOS BOX 中用 debug 运行 int13 来读取某些扇区，这些扇区的第 2n 个字节都是对的，而第 2n+1 个字节都是 0。也就是说每隔一个字节都是 0，其余的半数字节都是对的。根据这个，我就觉得并非是 BUG 这么简单了，而是故意的。想想看，什么软件读扇区的时候会发生这种错误呢？根本不可能，不管是用 BIOS，还是用 IO port 硬件直接读写，都是整个扇区一齐读出，不是一个字节一个字节这样读出。所以，要错的话，应当是整个扇区全部面目全非，要对的话，就都对，丝毫也不差。所以，像上述所说交替出现错误，我认为几乎 100% 是故意制造的。 因此，我们查找 win98 的这段程序，把它纠正过来，应当就 OK 了。同样的，您公司所遇到的情况，（我觉得）也可以通过调试 win98 来解决（当然您公司的情况不很严重，所以也可以不解决）。

Hi,

Thank you very much!

Let's keep in contact.

By the way, I agree with you that it is M$ which intentionally causes those trouble.
It always tests something to make sure that it is in M$'s environment before Windows starts properly.

Examples:

1. You cannot install or start Win9x under Freedos.
2. It uses MSDOS.SYS to configure information about where Win9x is installed.
3. It creates Registry to better control or hide its system initialization information
4. It causes troubles in situations which you and we experience. For instance, when you use Mapping for different drives instead of using M$ SUBST command; and when you use int13 hook to redirect the location of access, M$ does something to make sure either one part or all parts of Windows fail.
5. Windows Update is another function in which it will use to destroy your machine.

Some some people have expressed the opinion that Win9x might be more and more valueable as it is less affected by Windows Update function or some features built into those later versions of Windows that enable M$ to control the Windows OS running in your machine.

For the technical problems you face, you should make sure you know what you want first. That is what do you want Grub for DOS for.

If it is for starting real DOS and running real mode DOS programmes. You have no problem.

If you want to start Win9x, then you should make sure you restore the environment changes that you made to fool Win9x to think that it is right for it to start.

So if you boot from the VFloppy, you should remove the VFloppy before you start Win9x.

If you want to access the image of the VFloppy within Win9x, you probably can use our VDisk Manager included with our WINDRV. The VDisk Manager and the associated Protected Mode Virtual Disk Driver is free for personal and private use.

We shall release a better version of WINDRV in the coming week.

Please pay a visit to:

windrv.net

and enter the Forum area: Windrv FAQ

for details.

Our VDisk Manager can help you load the IMG files into a ramdisk and you can also save the contents of the ramdisk back into IMG files. The IMG files can be up to Gigabytes. And you can use Defrag with our Virtual Ramdisk. You can see how fast it is.

We are busy with the new version now. After that, we shall write better FAQ & Help files.

谢谢您! 我的回复夹杂在您的帖子中, 如下:

Examples:

1. You cannot install or start Win9x under Freedos.

是的, 我也知道这个.

2. It uses MSDOS.SYS to configure information about where Win9x is installed.

是的, 还有很多别的复杂配置文件, 像是方便的控制手段, 也像是秘密通道之类的玩意儿. 如 ios.ini, winstart.bat 等等.

3. It creates Registry to better control or hide its system initialization information

是的, 注册表对于商家用密码加密产品保护自己, 是很有用的, 对于用户, 似乎没有用处.

4. It causes troubles in situations which you and we experience. For instance,
when you use Mapping for different drives instead of using M$ SUBST command;
and when you use int13 hook to redirect the location of access, M$ does something
to make sure either one part or all parts of Windows fail.

是的, 微软善于变换标准, 不支持以往的软件, 这些早期的软件是别的公司生产的, 可能很有竞争力.

5. Windows Update is another function in which it will use to destroy your machine.

Some some people have expressed the opinion that Win9x might be more and more valueable
as it is less affected by Windows Update function or some features built into those
later versions of Windows that enable M$ to control the Windows OS running in your machine.

我也害怕, 但对于 win98 来说, 这种破坏的实际发生, 我还没有听说过.

For the technical problems you face, you should make sure you know what you want first.
That is what do you want Grub for DOS for.

If it is for starting real DOS and running real mode DOS programmes. You have no problem.

If you want to start Win9x, then you should make sure you restore the environment changes
that you made to fool Win9x to think that it is right for it to start.

我本人希望 GRUB for DOS 可以在 win98 下正常使用. 这是我原来的目标. 自从发现我们上面的问题之后,
我不再特别鼓励其他人也这么用了. 在 DOS 以及无 "32-bit disk access" 的情况下已经比较正常了. 但这
并不说明在这种环境是绝对安全的. 比如, EMM386 下是否安全? 一些磁盘分区和备份软件是否能安全运行?
等等, 这都是问题. 安全只是相对的, 相对于运行 win98 而言, 运行 DOS 确实是安全了一些.

So if you boot from the VFloppy, you should remove the VFloppy
before you start Win9x.

关于这个, 我如果在 win98 启动过程中先禁止仿真, 那么 win98 就不再使用 int13 接口了, 也就是说, win98
下只能访问真实的软盘而无法访问 int13 重新定向了的软盘. 如果这涉及到您公司的专利, 我不再详细追问.
如果您的公司可以公布刚才所说的方法(或者源程序), 我当然十分欢迎了.

If you want to access the image of the VFloppy within Win9x, you probably can use our VDisk
Manager included with our WINDRV. The VDisk Manager and the associated Protected Mode Virtual
Disk Driver is free for personal and private use.

这是个好消息. 商业公司支持仿真软件, 可以使得仿真软件得到大众的充分利用. 真是一个好消息!

另外, 您公司对个人用户免费, 我向来赞成这种行为, 这是最实际可行的商业授权方法(尤其是在中国).

We shall release a better version of WINDRV in the coming week.

Please pay a visit to:

windrv.net

and enter the Forum area: Windrv FAQ

for details.

我还没有去看, 不过我会去看的. 谢谢您.

Our VDisk Manager can help you load the IMG files into a ramdisk and you can also save the
contents of the ramdisk back into IMG files. The IMG files can be up to Gigabytes. And you
can use Defrag with our Virtual Ramdisk. You can see how fast it is.

We are busy with the new version now. After that, we shall write better FAQ & Help files.

您公司所实现的(这种方法), 我一开始就没有打算实现. 我不使用 RAM 磁盘. 我知道用 RAM 磁盘之后,
问题大概就解决了, 但是我不具有 RAM 磁盘的有关知识, 不能编写这样的程序. 我所编写的仿真程序太初级,
太入门, 一点也不复杂, 很容易看懂. 但功能或者性能不会太好, 这是缺点了. 目前我还要致力于解决 grub
for dos 在 win98 中出现的问题.

谢谢您! 网络交流很不错!

Hi, Tinybit,

I have talked to my staff and he is also interested in your project. He should know much more about the relevant technical details than me.

After talking to him, he mentioned that according to his experience in writing a Partition Manager using VXD under Win9x, Win9x does not import real-mode DOS int13 information when entering into Protected-Mode. So it is different when you use real-mode int13 for disk access and protected-mode 32-bit disk access. This may be the reason for the trouble you find. Sometimes, he has to transit into real-mode to get the real-mode int13 information for the protected-mode process he works out.

May be someday when he is not so busy, I ask him to contact you.

Could you give us your email address so that we can correspond?

My email is:

windrv@windrv.net

to windrv:
does your products support the img files in a ntfs partition?

以下是引用hunome在2003-12-1 15:25:16的发言：
to windrv:
does your products support the img files in a ntfs partition?

Please go to www.systeminternals.com and install its NTFS driver for Win9x. We have tested after installing this driver, you can access NTFS partition uploaded onto our virtual ramdisk.

We may implement direct NTFS partition support in future if there is demand.

您好 windrv，和您的帖子一起回复如下：

I have talked to my staff and he is also interested in your project. He should know much more about the relevant technical details than me.

好消息，谢谢您和您的这位职员！

After talking to him, he mentioned that according to his experience in writing a Partition Manager
using VXD under Win9x, Win9x does not import real-mode DOS int13 information when entering
into Protected-Mode.

是的，如果 windows 采用了 32-bit 磁盘存取，它就不再使用 int13 接口了。但是，如果发现有必要对某个磁盘使用DOS 兼容模式的磁盘访问，那么 win98 还是要使用 int13 的。另外，即使是完全采用 32-bit disk access，windows 也并非完全脱离了 int13 接口。windows 似乎有一个 vxd 来处理 int25 , int26, int13 这些调用。另外在 MS-DOS 窗口中总是可以使用 int13 的（只不过有时候会出现错误，正如我上面提到的故意弄错）。关于 32-bit disk access 的内部机制，我还不清楚。我不知道它是像 win2000 一样完全脱离实模式 int13 呢？或者是设法在保护模式环境下直接调用 int13 的 16 位程序（这或许不太可能）。

So it is different when you use real-mode int13 for disk access and protected-mode
32-bit disk access. This may be the reason for the trouble you find.

两者确实不同，但由于我的 int13 终究要被 windows 用 MS-DOS 兼容模式来对待，所以，我最终都接触不到 32-bit disk access 的。也就是说，我一直都得用 16 位的 int13 接口。当 win98 用兼容模式访问磁盘时，它的行为和 DOS 窗口中的行为完全一样。这是我的一个发现。所以，只要解决了 DOS 窗口中出现的问题，整个问题也就解决了。所以我要用 SoftICE 来找出 windows 的错误（不管这个错误发生在何时何地，把它纠正过来就行了）。

Sometimes, he has to transit into real-mode to get the real-mode int13 information for the
protected-mode process he works out.

不知道是否可以在保护模式直接使用 int13？保护模式的程序段属性也可以设置成 16位的。另外，如果仅仅是调用 int13，那么似乎 windows 本身的某个 vxd 就提供这种接口，不必转入 real mode。

May be someday when he is not so busy, I ask him to contact you.

Could you give us your email address so that we can correspond?

My email is:

windrv@windrv.net

我理解。能者多劳，他们总是比较忙的。我的邮件是：tinybit@163.net。谢谢您的引见。
（不过，补充一点，邮件我不常看，大约每月看一次；但论坛我常来，几乎每天来一次。）

糟糕，SoftICE driver suite 2.7 无法在 vmware 中 win98 下使用。

真是邪了。以前安装在真实机器上是可以的，这次在 vmware 下不行。谁能帮忙啊？只要加载 winice，就不能进入 win98，就死机了。这与 GRUB 仿真无关。还没有开始使用 grub，就不能进入 win98 了。

以下是引用不点在2003-12-2 21:47:09的发言：
糟糕，SoftICE driver suite 2.7 无法在 vmware 中 win98 下使用。

不点：这个Soft-ICE 2.7是指DOS版的还是WIN版的？是什么时候以及什么状态下死机的？

老兄您有所不知. 我为了安装 softice, 可以说历尽艰辛. 先是找到最新版 SOFTICE DRIVER SUITE 3.0 安装, 这东西用 rar 压缩后居然要占用 92M 空间, 我用 U 盘两次才把它从办公室搬到家里. 可是, 居然说这个不能在 win98 下运行, 说应当安装 2.7 的版本. 寻找 2,7 颇费周折, 终于找到了好几个 2.7 的版本. 这些版本都是 for win9x 的, 可是居然不支持 vmware 的硬件(我估计是 vmware 的显卡). 这下子麻烦了. 启动到将近出现 windows 桌面而还没有出现的时候死机了. 安装多次, 情况依旧.

除非在真实机下使用, 这我知道肯定行, 但我不敢在这种状况下调试 GRUB 啊.

以下是引用不点在2003-12-3 9:09:15的发言：
老兄您有所不知. 我为了安装 softice, 可以说历尽艰辛. 先是找到最新版 SOFTICE DRIVER SUITE 3.0 安装, 这东西用 rar 压缩后居然要占用 92M 空间, 我用 U 盘两次才把它从办公室搬到家里. 可是, 居然说这个不能在 win98 下运行, 说应当安装 2.7 的版本. 寻找 2,7 颇费周折, 终于找到了好几个 2.7 的版本. 这些版本都是 for win9x 的, 可是居然不支持 vmware 的硬件(我估计是 vmware 的显卡). 这下子麻烦了. 启动到将近出现 windows 桌面而还没有出现的时候死机了. 安装多次, 情况依旧.

除非在真实机下使用, 这我知道肯定行, 但我不敢在这种状况下调试 GRUB 啊.

Hi,

Have you tried using Bochs instead of Vmware?

And could you tell me where in the northern part of China you are?

以下是引用不点在2003-12-3 9:09:15的发言：
老兄您有所不知. 我为了安装 softice, 可以说历尽艰辛. 先是找到最新版 SOFTICE DRIVER SUITE 3.0 安装, 这东西用 rar 压缩后居然要占用 92M 空间, 我用 U 盘两次才把它从办公室搬到家里. 可是, 居然说这个不能在 win98 下运行, 说应当安装 2.7 的版本. 寻找 2,7 颇费周折, 终于找到了好几个 2.7 的版本. 这些版本都是 for win9x 的, 可是居然不支持 vmware 的硬件(我估计是 vmware 的显卡). 这下子麻烦了. 启动到将近出现 windows 桌面而还没有出现的时候死机了. 安装多次, 情况依旧.

除非在真实机下使用, 这我知道肯定行, 但我不敢在这种状况下调试 GRUB 啊.

Hi Tinybit,

Why not use a real hard disk to test instead?

Last Saturday, I bought 2 second hand hard disks at Guangzhou. Its size is 1.2G and looks like a new one after refurbishing.

It costs me only RMB15 each .

So you could try using this kind of cheap hard disks for testing and development.

vpc可不可以呢？

回复 windrv 兄:

Have you tried using Bochs instead of Vmware?

没有用过。感觉 BOCHS 还不合适。它启动 windows 很困难，至少慢得难以忍受。

And could you tell me where in the northern part of China you are?

我们在技术论坛主要关心的是技术问题及其解决，其它问题是很次要的，我感觉。特别是有了网络，地球也不过是个村庄，技术交流和思想交流都不会有任何障碍。抱歉，我从来都没有对任何人公开过自己的真实资料，因为网络是个虚拟的世界（因此也是一个不安全的世界）。我想您会理解的。

Why not use a real hard disk to test instead?

Last Saturday, I bought 2 second hand hard disks at Guangzhou. Its size is 1.2G and looks like a new one after refurbishing.

It costs me only RMB15 each .

So you could try using this kind of cheap hard disks for testing and development.

一个真实的磁盘，我本来就可以弄到。但我觉得最好是在 vmware 中搞，因为这样很方便。

回复 hunome 兄：

vpc可不可以呢？

我用的是 LINUX 系统，只能使用 vmware，不能使用 VPC。建议使用 WINDOWS 的兄弟试试 VPC。

Hi Tinybit,

In my opinion, your Grub for DOS is about to complete since what you want is to have it compatible with running Win9x.

We wish to open a new project on Grub for Win on our website, would you like to join in?

grub for dos 的目标远远没有达到。还有仿真 iso 光盘文件系统，启动 CDROM 等复杂艰难的任务在等待着（这些问题曾经在本站的某个论坛上讨论过）。尽管我对于您的 grub for win 十分支持，但似乎我已经没有时间再去做了，很抱歉。谢谢您一直以来的帮助和支持。

grub for dos 将来或许也可以从 win98 的 DOS 窗口下运行。但不一定能从 win2000 的环境下运行。这依赖于能否 HACK win2000 使得我们能够容易地从保护模式切换到实模式。不过这些 for windows 的实现，不在计划之内，或许根本就没有时间去做。